When I listen to a roll with the fiddle, I feel that the note is played almost for it's normal duration and then the rest of the roll starts. Is that correct?
You mostly hear the base note in a roll because the other notes are just interuptors with no clear pitch. Get some software that can slow down an audio file and listen to the roll at a slow enough speed to hear what's going on.
in simple terms yeh that would be a "long roll", e.g. a dotted crotchet in a reel. I'm not great at explaining with theoretical terms so maybe someone can elaborate!!
I just read that and if you havn't heard rolls first it would be of no help whatsoever. It's impossible to describe the timing of it. It's an aural thing
There are different ways to do rolls, is one problem. There's the fast roll, in which there's your base note interrupted by a flick and a lift in rapid succession. There's a long roll, in which the spacing between the flick and lift is greater and more dramatic. There's a half-half roll, in which you flick and then articulate the left, or in which you articulate the high note and then ghost the lift. Or there's a Sliabh Luachra even roll, when you play all five notes rapidly but with equal articulation.
Not having the luxury of an Irish fiddle teacher, I learned the long roll from the Kevin Burke videos (Learn to Play Irish Fiddle, Homespun tapes).
Burke breaks the roll down and shows how it's done step-by-step, plays them at tempo so you can play along and get the feel, and even shows how he practiced it to get it down himself.
If you don't have a flesh-and-blood Irish fiddle teacher, then I can't recommend these videos highly enough. Great resource for learning to do it right (well, as long as you want to do it like Kevin Burke, but that's hardly a bad place to start).
Some fiddlers play mostly percussive rolls, where the cut and tap aren't specific pitches. Kevin Burke comes to mind. Other fiddlers (think Brian Conway and Seamus Connolly) tend to mostly do more open, notey rolls, where you can hear the pitch of the cut and tap. The timing--how long you hold the home note before starting the cuts and taps--varies, but most percussive rollers tend to hold that first note a bit longer before cutting and tapping. Most notey rollers tend to even the whole thing out more.
It helps to have *all* of these options in your bag of tricks, so you can do what suits the tune and your mood at the moment.
As I learned it....technically rolls are the note itself, the note above , the note itself, the note below, and finally the note itself again. Some players choose to play any note higher (for the note above) on the same string and just hit the string without "pinning it to the wood' so as to interupt the vibration.
This is all done in the space of a quarter note, which is the same value of two eighth notes. When there is a dotted quarter note, you are working with the space of three eighth notes not just two and have a choice. If you roll on the first two eighth note values, the roll lands on the beat and sound "fast". If you roll on the second and third eighth note values, it is slightly behind the beat and sounds "slow". The length of the roll is still two eighth note values in either case. Fast rolls sound more urgent and kind of move the tune along while the slow rolls sound more relaxed and maybe effective in other places in a tune. Other may see it differently, but this is how I learned it.
I see what I was doing wrong! I was rolling five notes each time I came to the roll symbol, but in actually fact you play the first note of the roll, and only then do you make a roll of four notes, and NOT FIVE!!!!
I have been reading all over that it is 5 notes in the roll, but now I have been doing someintense listening and I hear a note being played followed by 4 NOTES! and not five and it fits perfect in the timing of the tune.
Thanks for everyone's replies wonderful to hear them all, and isn't trad just brilliant!
I just love it when my rolls and cuts come off perfectly!!!
Now that you've got the number of notes sorted, the best thing to do is collect as many recordings as you can of either (a) a regional fiddle style you wish to follow or (b) fiddle players that you personally enjoy listening to. Get a hold of some software that will slow down these recordings to a sufficient level so you can really pick apart the technique of the fiddler.
This is what I did for a long time in my bedroom when I was young and didn't know anyone else playing trad music. I can't stress enough practicing rolls slowly.
I know of a tabla player in Sydney who, when he started with his guru in India, spent about 8 or 9 months every day from sunrise to sunset doing a very, very slow, one-fingered "boom-chick" sounding excercise on the smaller drum of the tabla pair. Needless to say he is now an excellent tabla player. I think all of us can learn from this slow practice technique (although it is a little extreme).
Anyway, listening is the key - there is only so far reading can take you. Here's an analogy - I work in the wine business and you can read tasting notes of a wine, and while this is useful to a point, you have to go and try the wine for yourself to know exactly how it tastes. So it is with fiddle - reading is helpful, but nothing beats the real thing.
A roll question
A roll question
When I listen to a roll with the fiddle, I feel that the note is played almost for it's normal duration and then the rest of the roll starts. Is that correct?
Help desperately needed on this
Thanks a million
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Shylock
Re: A roll question
You mostly hear the base note in a roll because the other notes are just interuptors with no clear pitch. Get some software that can slow down an audio file and listen to the roll at a slow enough speed to hear what's going on.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Marklar
Re: A roll question
in simple terms yeh that would be a "long roll", e.g. a dotted crotchet in a reel. I'm not great at explaining with theoretical terms so maybe someone can elaborate!!
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Lizzy
Hi schreetch
Thanks for your speedy reply, so what you are saying is a clear base note and then the roll interrupting?
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Shylock
Re: A roll question
yes, a long roll. Think of it as a percusive thing rather than a sequence of notes.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A roll question
Here's a page with an explaination of the roll:
http://www.geocities.com/~cliff_moses/ornaments/ornament.html
It's written with the dulcimer in mind, but it includes info on how the roll is done on the fiddle.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Marklar
Re: A roll question
I just read that and if you havn't heard rolls first it would be of no help whatsoever. It's impossible to describe the timing of it. It's an aural thing
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A roll question
It's up to a player's preference how long to hold a note before doing a roll.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by timmy!
Re: A roll question
There are different ways to do rolls, is one problem. There's the fast roll, in which there's your base note interrupted by a flick and a lift in rapid succession. There's a long roll, in which the spacing between the flick and lift is greater and more dramatic. There's a half-half roll, in which you flick and then articulate the left, or in which you articulate the high note and then ghost the lift. Or there's a Sliabh Luachra even roll, when you play all five notes rapidly but with equal articulation.
--DtM
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: A roll question
Not having the luxury of an Irish fiddle teacher, I learned the long roll from the Kevin Burke videos (Learn to Play Irish Fiddle, Homespun tapes).
Burke breaks the roll down and shows how it's done step-by-step, plays them at tempo so you can play along and get the feel, and even shows how he practiced it to get it down himself.
If you don't have a flesh-and-blood Irish fiddle teacher, then I can't recommend these videos highly enough. Great resource for learning to do it right (well, as long as you want to do it like Kevin Burke, but that's hardly a bad place to start).
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Marklar
Re: A roll question
Thanks guys any one else out there would like to help me on this, I will check the Burke video for sure
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Shylock
Re: A roll question
Here's an old thread that gets into the timing issue.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/428
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: A roll question
Some fiddlers play mostly percussive rolls, where the cut and tap aren't specific pitches. Kevin Burke comes to mind. Other fiddlers (think Brian Conway and Seamus Connolly) tend to mostly do more open, notey rolls, where you can hear the pitch of the cut and tap. The timing--how long you hold the home note before starting the cuts and taps--varies, but most percussive rollers tend to hold that first note a bit longer before cutting and tapping. Most notey rollers tend to even the whole thing out more.
It helps to have *all* of these options in your bag of tricks, so you can do what suits the tune and your mood at the moment.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Cheshire puddy thanks
Great explanation with the train and wagons!!!
Thanks a million
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by Shylock
Re: A roll question
As I learned it....technically rolls are the note itself, the note above , the note itself, the note below, and finally the note itself again. Some players choose to play any note higher (for the note above) on the same string and just hit the string without "pinning it to the wood' so as to interupt the vibration.
This is all done in the space of a quarter note, which is the same value of two eighth notes. When there is a dotted quarter note, you are working with the space of three eighth notes not just two and have a choice. If you roll on the first two eighth note values, the roll lands on the beat and sound "fast". If you roll on the second and third eighth note values, it is slightly behind the beat and sounds "slow". The length of the roll is still two eighth note values in either case. Fast rolls sound more urgent and kind of move the tune along while the slow rolls sound more relaxed and maybe effective in other places in a tune. Other may see it differently, but this is how I learned it.
# Posted on March 11th 2007 by flyman
Now I have it!
I see what I was doing wrong! I was rolling five notes each time I came to the roll symbol, but in actually fact you play the first note of the roll, and only then do you make a roll of four notes, and NOT FIVE!!!!
I have been reading all over that it is 5 notes in the roll, but now I have been doing someintense listening and I hear a note being played followed by 4 NOTES! and not five and it fits perfect in the timing of the tune.
Thanks for everyone's replies wonderful to hear them all, and isn't trad just brilliant!
I just love it when my rolls and cuts come off perfectly!!!
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Shylock
Re: A roll question
Hey Will, keep smiling or you'll disappear completely
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A roll question
Shylock!
Now that you've got the number of notes sorted, the best thing to do is collect as many recordings as you can of either (a) a regional fiddle style you wish to follow or (b) fiddle players that you personally enjoy listening to. Get a hold of some software that will slow down these recordings to a sufficient level so you can really pick apart the technique of the fiddler.
This is what I did for a long time in my bedroom when I was young and didn't know anyone else playing trad music. I can't stress enough practicing rolls slowly.
I know of a tabla player in Sydney who, when he started with his guru in India, spent about 8 or 9 months every day from sunrise to sunset doing a very, very slow, one-fingered "boom-chick" sounding excercise on the smaller drum of the tabla pair. Needless to say he is now an excellent tabla player. I think all of us can learn from this slow practice technique (although it is a little extreme).
Anyway, listening is the key - there is only so far reading can take you. Here's an analogy - I work in the wine business and you can read tasting notes of a wine, and while this is useful to a point, you have to go and try the wine for yourself to know exactly how it tastes. So it is with fiddle - reading is helpful, but nothing beats the real thing.
Hope this heaps
Andy
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by dargs
Re: A roll question
Hi Andy, couldn't agree more. Slow and steady is definitely the way to go. Worked for me !
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Strathfoyle
Thanks Andy good advice
And I am going to follow it
'
Regards and thanks
# Posted on March 12th 2007 by Shylock