I often find my bow shoulder (right shoulder) gets tired really quickly while playing. Any ideas on why this is? Do I need to strengthen my muscles or something? It seems to be mostly in the joint and happens faster if I am playing on the D and G string. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciate.
Hi Anna. A few questions to try to get a little more information:
How long have you been playing?
When you say "really quickly" what time period do you mean?
How do you hold your right elbow (how high/low)?
Has your shoulder always gotten tired really quickly or did this start recently?
I have been playing off and on for over ten years.
My shoulder starts getting tired within a couple minutes of playing.
My shoulder has always gotten tired, which led to bad pasture and thus all kinds of problems. My posture is better now and I dont feel pain anywhere else besides my right shoulder joint. I notice it most when my elbow is horizontal with my wrist. I notice it less when my elbow is lower, however that goes a bit against what I "believe" to be "correct" bowing. I would be happy to be enlightened if I am wrong. I am just looking for something effective and pain free that still allows me to do everything I want. I wonder if I dont have enough flexibility in my shoulder. I do yoga a lot and my shoulders are always stubborn and inflexible. My rotator cuff is not flexible at all so I am wondering if I dont have a bit enough range of motion in my right arm. It seems to bother me most when I am at the frog of my bow, like I am pinching something. This is the same shoulder that I once had tendinitis in. It doesn;t feel like tendinitis now, especially since I have been playing in months, but I would like to prevent the pain to allow for longer practice and playing sessions and with the hope that I can avoid injury in the future. I know that was rather long. I hope it answers you questions adequately.
You could consider the Alexander Technique. That fabulous fiddler from the north-east, Tom McConville, is both a practitioner and a teacher of the techniqiue. It's fabulous to watch him "relax seriously" when he's playing.
These elbows are pretty low. I try to keep my elbow down, although it does go up a bit to get to the D and G. But John Kelly Sr.'s elbow pretty much looks like it is next to his rib cage.
The Alexander suggestion is also good. And stretching as a warm up before you play.
Is the pain in the front of the shoulder or near the back? (Since the shoulder is more a rotating ball-in-a-socket set up rather than a joint, it helps if you specify where exactly on the shoulder you're feeling the pain.)
I'm not a fiddle player, but I developed tendonitis in my left shoulder from playing flute and from shelving books at the bookstore I used to work at. I also have tendonitis in my right shoulder from a yoga injury. I too used to have terrible posture all during my teenage years, and my shoulders have always been extremely inflexible and weak because of it. I basically have the exact same problem you do, it seems.
When I was injured, I experienced the most pain when I lifted my upper arm away from my body, especially if my forearm was held in a horizontal position, such as what you're describing when you play your fiddle. When I injured my right shoulder, my doc told me it was a rotator cuff strain; however when I injured my left shoulder, I had the EXACT same pain in the exact same places as I had on my right shoulder and my new doc told me it was tendonitis in the biceps tendon, which makes much more sense because the pain was at the top of my shoulder and going down the front-side of the bulbous part, which is where the biceps tendon is. SO, if this sounds like what you're experience, it could be the start of biceps tendonitis.
I suggest doing shoulder-strengthening exercises with those band thingies that you tie to a doorknob, and also any yoga poses good for shoulder strength like downward dog, plank, dolphin, headstand, etc. (as long as they don't cause you any pain of course!) And you should probably put down your fiddle as soon as you start feeling any pain, 'cause trust me, it'll just make it worse if you decide to play through the pain (I did that with my flute, and I ended up not being able to even move my arm for five days; then I couldn't play flute for two weeks).
Oh and the Alexander Technique, as Steve Shaw suggested, is AMAZING. I had an Alexander Technique session after those two weeks of not playing my flute, and I brought my flute with me, and the guy showed me how to play it without putting my shoulder at an awkward angle; I was able to play my flute even though I still had tendonitis at the time. Something to look into!
Do you find yourself holding the fiddle up by pushing upward with your shoulder at all? You should be able to keep the fiddle in place with your shoulder completely relaxed, so it would have no reason to get tired. Try resting it more on the collarbone and get a shoulder rest if you need.
Anna, my Suzuki violin teacher has taught me to keep the right upper arm relaxed and hanging close in to the side as far as possible. This fits in with the bow hold she taught me, and also keeping the bow hair flat on the string rather than tilted away. So that implies that the right elbow is usually below the wrist, even when playing on the D and G strings, and no unnecessary strain on the shoulder.
In addition to the AT, a few lessons from a Suzuki teacher might help if one is available in your locality. In any case, the Todd Ehle teaching videos on YouTube always merit careful study.
Some of the old style fiddlers tilted the fiddle so they never had to raise their arms to reach the bottom string. Some even lowered their fiddle and rested it on their brest bone. . May not look the best but notice john Kelly in the clip above and compare his right hand with his son's. It might help.
You might have the start of a "frozen Shoulder" . To check stand with your back against a wall and slowly raise both arms above you head if one gets stuck before you reach full height then you need to get it checked out.
Ànna, how long have you been playing? I guess not long. It's probably just a matter of building up stamina in your fiddle playing muscles. This is provided you don't have any bad habits in your playing posture. This is so important for fiddle. You can do yourself a serious injury over time with bad playing posture. If you've had some lessons from a decent teacher you're probably ok here. As mentioned above, the Todd Ehle videos are fantastic.
So, it's really just a matter of practise I'm afraid. There's no shortcut or magic formula.
Oh sorry, I didn't see your second post above. You've been playing for ten year. Then all I can suggest is you first of all go and see a good teacher to check your technique. For what it's worth, I read an interview with Nigel Kennedy where he mentioned he'd had some physical problems. I think he said a few visits to a chiropractor sorted him out. Might be worth googling for that interview.
Whiddler apologised above for answering the wrong question (about holding the fiddle on the shoulder). But on reflection he was correct to raise the matter because it is essential to have full relaxation and good posture on both the left and right sides. If a player hunches up his shoulder to hold the fiddle this will cause tensions on the other side. Overall relaxation is the road to becoming a Compleat Fiddler.
It's also worth saying that even the most experienced players can, over time, let aspects of technique and posture slip. This is especially so if a player is doing a great deal of playing and not enough thoughtful practice on his own. It makes sense for such musicians to have an occasional playing "check-up" from someone independent. Even great soloists sometimes pay a visit to some great guru.
Having a good balance between the right and left sides of the body is important. If there’s tension in the left arm there will usually be tension in the right. And if the fingers of the left hand are tense it’s nearly impossible not to be tense in the right fingers. If the angle the fiddle is held to the side (from the centre) is too great or too small the left arm will have to accommodate for it and tension will arise. (30% to the left is near optimal for me.) Likewise, how the fiddle itself is angled makes a difference. Tension caused in the left shoulder by a shoulder-rest can also result in the right shoulder compensating and becoming tense. Practicing standing rather than seated is a good idea for sorting out problems with posture. Without a shoulder-rest and the fiddle being held in place with the chin rest, according to Yehudi Menuhin, when we take the left hand away the violin should droop by nearly 45 degrees. Most people apply too much pressure with the jaw, and (when coupled with the shoulder-rest) this is maybe why so many of my classical violinist friends have serious muscular problems.
An excellent book on good physical posture is: “The Simplicity of Playing the Violin”, by Herbert Whone. It’s out of print but it’s easy to get a second-hand copy (on Amazon for example). Its absolutely invaluable. I’ve never really suffered any muscle pain from fiddle playing, but it’s improved my posture a lot.
And just in case; on why you should avoid chiropractors like the plague (one that can wreck your back)! (and also some stuff on why a shoulder rest is not a quick fix.) —
"If the angle the fiddle is held to the side (from the centre) is too great or too small the RIGHT arm will have to accommodate for it and tension will arise."
Even when I was young, that would've led to trouble for me. As an elder now, I make sure to keep my shoulder low, even when playing on the G string. One thing that helps is adjusting my shoulder rest so the fiddle top is angled--the treble side is pointing toward my right foot. This brings the D and G strings within easier reach. I'm also careful to keep the scroll at or forward of 10 o'clock (if straight in front of my nose is noon) so my right arm doesn't have to reach around too far.
For most Irish dance music, you don't need long bow strokes. I usually find myself playing in the middle to upper third of the bow, using short bow strokes. Most of this can be done with very little upper arm movement--it's all in the wrist and hand. When I do play up by the frog, I keep my right elbow low and flex my wrist (the "swan's head" look) to reach the D and G strings. Works fine, and takes far less effort than the more classical "salute" arm posture.
If it is a frozen shoulder, and not some other problem (you should get it looked at)....
I'm recovering from a frozen shoulder right now--the right one, this time. It was the left one a couple of years ago, so I know the routine. The most effective exercise is to stand facing the wall and "walk" your fingertips up it, moving your feet in closer as needed. (Yes, like Itsy-Bitsy Spider climbing up the waterspout.) Keep trying to reach a little bit higher each day. Another one is to dangle the arm loosely and do pendulum circles, to relax the muscles and tendons that move across the shoulder joint. Be patient, it can take months to get the full range of motion back again.
Yes definitely see a doc;
it could be joint deterioration
I have had this and one day the joint
has a little sharp pain right in the middle
of the joint; then the doc gives you a
scrip for the stuff they give horses to
run around the track one more time:
glucosamine.and the essential oils;
he gave me the non fish oil essential
oil scrip which is flax and a few others.
But I did down two or three bottles of flax
oil a couple teaspoons at a time.
One thing he did ask "does it make noise?"
Mine did not at that time but now it has
for going on years.
I'm a fiddler, but I'm not going to say that
is the cause of it.
The oils and glucosamine take months to
get rid of the pain: six months or so.
Hello Anna,
When playing, your body shd be the same as just standing or sitting. No different, or you are doing something unnatural. This is what Alexander Technique teaches. For several years I spent all my time and money getting out of my playing pains while learning release. Quite a journey, but well worth it.
I have found that violin playing positions, much copied by fiddlers with or without teachers, are the major cause of playing pains. "A good teacher" may mean well, but insist on destructive impossible positions. Usually for no good reason other than they had to learn it that way.
In my view, AT lessons and such were not expensive because, when at AT lessons, chiropractors, massage, etc. I used these as educational opportunities, the school of the body. These are not spectator activities. You get out what you put in. I paid attention to what they did, asked questions, and now I don't need to go back to them because I have taught myself to release, so I don't get into tension troubles. "Constant vigilance is the price of freedom."- Thomas Jefferson
Discover where your tensions are. Stand comfortably, then think of playing, and the tensions will appear. Notice them and release them. Just as you teach your fingers, teach your other muscles to do as you want. Another way to locate tensions is to intensify your "position" when you begin to play, when you are not yet hurting. Cause the same pains, notice what muscles are used, and teach them to release. Talking to them helps: "Your tightening may have been useful in the past, but I don't need your tension now, so I give you permission to release."
You will notice that as you release more, playing hardly requires any work (=muscles). This is because the more you release, the more your playing comes from natural swing. and your tone from the natural weight of your body. Then playing is really Play. We don't Work our instruments, we Play them.
Some specifics: Your arms begin at their connection to the top of your breast bone (sterno-clavicular joints). Swing both your arms to notice this. Put fingers on collar bones and shrug your shoulders to prove it.
So when you play, yr arms hang from these joints, not from the shoulder. Releasing your Entire arms gives natural and immediate loving sound, big volume, and appropriate expression. Fun. (May require some personal work to achieve release.)
Basically, you shd hang your hand and arm from the bow stick, not lift up the arm and set the bow on the string. Let yr pinky slide off the top of the stick. Permission to Relax.
Stand comfortably with arms at sides. Bend elbows with hands coming up straight in front of you. Use this as your beginning physical shape and discover what works for you. Note that yr elbows remain pretty much by yr sides. Obviously similar to other pursuits, such as the computers we use.
Begin with no effort, very understated playing. Some may want to force out their music, and their voice will do the same.
Oh, so fiddling is like everything else we do in life! It's not a separate, closed-box study! "All ways are the same in the end."- Musashi.
I am having problems with my rotator cuff (right shoulder) and have had to stop playing for a short time.
I am also studying naturopathy and am treating myself for this problem.
I am using Tissue Salt 'Ferr. Phos' for the inflamation.
Calc. Flour. to improve elasticity (something we all lose as we age) and vitamin C in increase collagen metabolism (collagen is the glue that holds everything together)
I am also using a massage oil with pepermint and ginger essential oil in it to deal with pain and inflamation.
My shoulder has improved greatly in the last few weeks and I can now at least sleep undisturbed by pain and my arm movement has almost returned to normal.
Thought you might find this helpful...good luck with your arm
Hi,
I've just joined this website. I've read very good advices especially about Alexander technique. It's very good, although not specifically meant/conceived for violin playing. I'd mention the books and teaching DVD by Kato Havas, Hungarian violin player and teacher who's been teaching injuries and stage fright prevention for 50 years.
She teaches to play using the natural body movements, using no force, no pressure but the natural balances and weights. I'm a great fan of her new approach, I never had tendonitis but everything was so difficult, I used to get really terribly nervous, i could no longer play for any audience. By releasing the physical tension I can play with much more ease and got rid of nerves.
She teaches to play the way she saw the gypsies play, the Hungarian folk players. Somebody says there is a classical, a folk way to play, but as far as the basics go, that is the use of the body, it's all the same.
I guess you hunch your right shoulder to get to the D & G string and maybe press to get a bigger tone. Very common, (I play violin and viola, even more common on the viola). This causes strain in the shoulder and then pain.
Also, you said you get the pain most when your elbow is horizontal with your wrist. that's because stiff wrists (in line with the arm) stiffen the whole arm, up to the shoulder.
Watch those videos, I cannot recommend her enough. There are practical exercises that you can do.
violin technique help
violin technique help
I often find my bow shoulder (right shoulder) gets tired really quickly while playing. Any ideas on why this is? Do I need to strengthen my muscles or something? It seems to be mostly in the joint and happens faster if I am playing on the D and G string. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciate.
Much Love,
Anna
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by banana512
Re: violin technique help
Hi Anna. A few questions to try to get a little more information:
How long have you been playing?
When you say "really quickly" what time period do you mean?
How do you hold your right elbow (how high/low)?
Has your shoulder always gotten tired really quickly or did this start recently?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by tacoman
Re: violin technique help
I have been playing off and on for over ten years.
My shoulder starts getting tired within a couple minutes of playing.
My shoulder has always gotten tired, which led to bad pasture and thus all kinds of problems. My posture is better now and I dont feel pain anywhere else besides my right shoulder joint. I notice it most when my elbow is horizontal with my wrist. I notice it less when my elbow is lower, however that goes a bit against what I "believe" to be "correct" bowing. I would be happy to be enlightened if I am wrong. I am just looking for something effective and pain free that still allows me to do everything I want. I wonder if I dont have enough flexibility in my shoulder. I do yoga a lot and my shoulders are always stubborn and inflexible. My rotator cuff is not flexible at all so I am wondering if I dont have a bit enough range of motion in my right arm. It seems to bother me most when I am at the frog of my bow, like I am pinching something. This is the same shoulder that I once had tendinitis in. It doesn;t feel like tendinitis now, especially since I have been playing in months, but I would like to prevent the pain to allow for longer practice and playing sessions and with the hope that I can avoid injury in the future. I know that was rather long. I hope it answers you questions adequately.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by banana512
Re: violin technique help
You could consider the Alexander Technique. That fabulous fiddler from the north-east, Tom McConville, is both a practitioner and a teacher of the techniqiue. It's fabulous to watch him "relax seriously" when he's playing.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: violin technique help
I'm clearly so p*ssed that I do stupid things like use the word "fabulous" twice within seconds. I'm not even on my third bottle of Merlot yet either.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: violin technique help
Hi again Anna
Maybe you could try lowering your elbow a bit and take some of the stress off your shoulder. Have a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A
These elbows are pretty low. I try to keep my elbow down, although it does go up a bit to get to the D and G. But John Kelly Sr.'s elbow pretty much looks like it is next to his rib cage.
The Alexander suggestion is also good. And stretching as a warm up before you play.
Good luck.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by tacoman
Re: violin technique help
Is the pain in the front of the shoulder or near the back? (Since the shoulder is more a rotating ball-in-a-socket set up rather than a joint, it helps if you specify where exactly on the shoulder you're feeling the pain.)
I'm not a fiddle player, but I developed tendonitis in my left shoulder from playing flute and from shelving books at the bookstore I used to work at. I also have tendonitis in my right shoulder from a yoga injury. I too used to have terrible posture all during my teenage years, and my shoulders have always been extremely inflexible and weak because of it. I basically have the exact same problem you do, it seems.
When I was injured, I experienced the most pain when I lifted my upper arm away from my body, especially if my forearm was held in a horizontal position, such as what you're describing when you play your fiddle. When I injured my right shoulder, my doc told me it was a rotator cuff strain; however when I injured my left shoulder, I had the EXACT same pain in the exact same places as I had on my right shoulder and my new doc told me it was tendonitis in the biceps tendon, which makes much more sense because the pain was at the top of my shoulder and going down the front-side of the bulbous part, which is where the biceps tendon is. SO, if this sounds like what you're experience, it could be the start of biceps tendonitis.
I suggest doing shoulder-strengthening exercises with those band thingies that you tie to a doorknob, and also any yoga poses good for shoulder strength like downward dog, plank, dolphin, headstand, etc. (as long as they don't cause you any pain of course!) And you should probably put down your fiddle as soon as you start feeling any pain, 'cause trust me, it'll just make it worse if you decide to play through the pain (I did that with my flute, and I ended up not being able to even move my arm for five days; then I couldn't play flute for two weeks).
Oh and the Alexander Technique, as Steve Shaw suggested, is AMAZING. I had an Alexander Technique session after those two weeks of not playing my flute, and I brought my flute with me, and the guy showed me how to play it without putting my shoulder at an awkward angle; I was able to play my flute even though I still had tendonitis at the time. Something to look into!
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Tasia
Re: violin technique help
Do you find yourself holding the fiddle up by pushing upward with your shoulder at all? You should be able to keep the fiddle in place with your shoulder completely relaxed, so it would have no reason to get tired. Try resting it more on the collarbone and get a shoulder rest if you need.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Whiddler
Re: violin technique help
Ha, I really need to learn to read. Disregard.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Whiddler
Re: violin technique help
i liked AT, and it helped me a lot, but it's expensive.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Kheelch
Re: violin technique help
Anna, my Suzuki violin teacher has taught me to keep the right upper arm relaxed and hanging close in to the side as far as possible. This fits in with the bow hold she taught me, and also keeping the bow hair flat on the string rather than tilted away. So that implies that the right elbow is usually below the wrist, even when playing on the D and G strings, and no unnecessary strain on the shoulder.
In addition to the AT, a few lessons from a Suzuki teacher might help if one is available in your locality. In any case, the Todd Ehle teaching videos on YouTube always merit careful study.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: violin technique help
cool, thanks for all the posts. You guys are the best : )
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by banana512
Re: violin technique help
no-one's said it. Stop elevating your right shoulder!
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by reenactor
Re: violin technique help
Some of the old style fiddlers tilted the fiddle so they never had to raise their arms to reach the bottom string. Some even lowered their fiddle and rested it on their brest bone. . May not look the best but notice john Kelly in the clip above and compare his right hand with his son's. It might help.
You might have the start of a "frozen Shoulder" . To check stand with your back against a wall and slowly raise both arms above you head if one gets stuck before you reach full height then you need to get it checked out.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by murcu
Re: violin technique help
Ànna, how long have you been playing? I guess not long. It's probably just a matter of building up stamina in your fiddle playing muscles. This is provided you don't have any bad habits in your playing posture. This is so important for fiddle. You can do yourself a serious injury over time with bad playing posture. If you've had some lessons from a decent teacher you're probably ok here. As mentioned above, the Todd Ehle videos are fantastic.
So, it's really just a matter of practise I'm afraid. There's no shortcut or magic formula.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: violin technique help
Oh sorry, I didn't see your second post above. You've been playing for ten year. Then all I can suggest is you first of all go and see a good teacher to check your technique. For what it's worth, I read an interview with Nigel Kennedy where he mentioned he'd had some physical problems. I think he said a few visits to a chiropractor sorted him out. Might be worth googling for that interview.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: violin technique help
Hi Anna. I'm glad to hear that you are getting back into the fiddle. Hopefully you will get these issues sorted.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: violin technique help
Whiddler apologised above for answering the wrong question (about holding the fiddle on the shoulder). But on reflection he was correct to raise the matter because it is essential to have full relaxation and good posture on both the left and right sides. If a player hunches up his shoulder to hold the fiddle this will cause tensions on the other side. Overall relaxation is the road to becoming a Compleat Fiddler.
It's also worth saying that even the most experienced players can, over time, let aspects of technique and posture slip. This is especially so if a player is doing a great deal of playing and not enough thoughtful practice on his own. It makes sense for such musicians to have an occasional playing "check-up" from someone independent. Even great soloists sometimes pay a visit to some great guru.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: violin technique help
I agree with you lazyhound,
Having a good balance between the right and left sides of the body is important. If there’s tension in the left arm there will usually be tension in the right. And if the fingers of the left hand are tense it’s nearly impossible not to be tense in the right fingers. If the angle the fiddle is held to the side (from the centre) is too great or too small the left arm will have to accommodate for it and tension will arise. (30% to the left is near optimal for me.) Likewise, how the fiddle itself is angled makes a difference. Tension caused in the left shoulder by a shoulder-rest can also result in the right shoulder compensating and becoming tense. Practicing standing rather than seated is a good idea for sorting out problems with posture. Without a shoulder-rest and the fiddle being held in place with the chin rest, according to Yehudi Menuhin, when we take the left hand away the violin should droop by nearly 45 degrees. Most people apply too much pressure with the jaw, and (when coupled with the shoulder-rest) this is maybe why so many of my classical violinist friends have serious muscular problems.
An excellent book on good physical posture is: “The Simplicity of Playing the Violin”, by Herbert Whone. It’s out of print but it’s easy to get a second-hand copy (on Amazon for example). Its absolutely invaluable. I’ve never really suffered any muscle pain from fiddle playing, but it’s improved my posture a lot.
And just in case; on why you should avoid chiropractors like the plague (one that can wreck your back)! (and also some stuff on why a shoulder rest is not a quick fix.) —
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20457/comments#comment427708
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by whistleblower
Re: violin technique help
Oops! That should be:
"If the angle the fiddle is held to the side (from the centre) is too great or too small the RIGHT arm will have to accommodate for it and tension will arise."
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by whistleblower
Re: violin technique help
Anna, my shoulder would complain, too, if I tried the "correct" posture shown here by Joshua Bell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvlTuBnpKpc&feature=related
Even when I was young, that would've led to trouble for me. As an elder now, I make sure to keep my shoulder low, even when playing on the G string. One thing that helps is adjusting my shoulder rest so the fiddle top is angled--the treble side is pointing toward my right foot. This brings the D and G strings within easier reach. I'm also careful to keep the scroll at or forward of 10 o'clock (if straight in front of my nose is noon) so my right arm doesn't have to reach around too far.
For most Irish dance music, you don't need long bow strokes. I usually find myself playing in the middle to upper third of the bow, using short bow strokes. Most of this can be done with very little upper arm movement--it's all in the wrist and hand. When I do play up by the frog, I keep my right elbow low and flex my wrist (the "swan's head" look) to reach the D and G strings. Works fine, and takes far less effort than the more classical "salute" arm posture.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: violin technique help
If it is a frozen shoulder, and not some other problem (you should get it looked at)....
I'm recovering from a frozen shoulder right now--the right one, this time. It was the left one a couple of years ago, so I know the routine. The most effective exercise is to stand facing the wall and "walk" your fingertips up it, moving your feet in closer as needed. (Yes, like Itsy-Bitsy Spider climbing up the waterspout.) Keep trying to reach a little bit higher each day. Another one is to dangle the arm loosely and do pendulum circles, to relax the muscles and tendons that move across the shoulder joint. Be patient, it can take months to get the full range of motion back again.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: violin technique help
Yes definitely see a doc;
it could be joint deterioration
I have had this and one day the joint
has a little sharp pain right in the middle
of the joint; then the doc gives you a
scrip for the stuff they give horses to
run around the track one more time:
glucosamine.and the essential oils;
he gave me the non fish oil essential
oil scrip which is flax and a few others.
But I did down two or three bottles of flax
oil a couple teaspoons at a time.
One thing he did ask "does it make noise?"
Mine did not at that time but now it has
for going on years.
I'm a fiddler, but I'm not going to say that
is the cause of it.
The oils and glucosamine take months to
get rid of the pain: six months or so.
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by dogmageek
Re: violin technique help
Hello Anna,
When playing, your body shd be the same as just standing or sitting. No different, or you are doing something unnatural. This is what Alexander Technique teaches. For several years I spent all my time and money getting out of my playing pains while learning release. Quite a journey, but well worth it.
I have found that violin playing positions, much copied by fiddlers with or without teachers, are the major cause of playing pains. "A good teacher" may mean well, but insist on destructive impossible positions. Usually for no good reason other than they had to learn it that way.
In my view, AT lessons and such were not expensive because, when at AT lessons, chiropractors, massage, etc. I used these as educational opportunities, the school of the body. These are not spectator activities. You get out what you put in. I paid attention to what they did, asked questions, and now I don't need to go back to them because I have taught myself to release, so I don't get into tension troubles. "Constant vigilance is the price of freedom."- Thomas Jefferson
Discover where your tensions are. Stand comfortably, then think of playing, and the tensions will appear. Notice them and release them. Just as you teach your fingers, teach your other muscles to do as you want. Another way to locate tensions is to intensify your "position" when you begin to play, when you are not yet hurting. Cause the same pains, notice what muscles are used, and teach them to release. Talking to them helps: "Your tightening may have been useful in the past, but I don't need your tension now, so I give you permission to release."
You will notice that as you release more, playing hardly requires any work (=muscles). This is because the more you release, the more your playing comes from natural swing. and your tone from the natural weight of your body. Then playing is really Play. We don't Work our instruments, we Play them.
Some specifics: Your arms begin at their connection to the top of your breast bone (sterno-clavicular joints). Swing both your arms to notice this. Put fingers on collar bones and shrug your shoulders to prove it.
So when you play, yr arms hang from these joints, not from the shoulder. Releasing your Entire arms gives natural and immediate loving sound, big volume, and appropriate expression. Fun. (May require some personal work to achieve release.)
Basically, you shd hang your hand and arm from the bow stick, not lift up the arm and set the bow on the string. Let yr pinky slide off the top of the stick. Permission to Relax.
Stand comfortably with arms at sides. Bend elbows with hands coming up straight in front of you. Use this as your beginning physical shape and discover what works for you. Note that yr elbows remain pretty much by yr sides. Obviously similar to other pursuits, such as the computers we use.
Begin with no effort, very understated playing. Some may want to force out their music, and their voice will do the same.
Oh, so fiddling is like everything else we do in life! It's not a separate, closed-box study! "All ways are the same in the end."- Musashi.
Playing can be Fun.
Best wishes,
vlnplyr
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by vlnplyr
Re: violin technique help
Bit of a late entry but...
I am having problems with my rotator cuff (right shoulder) and have had to stop playing for a short time.
I am also studying naturopathy and am treating myself for this problem.
I am using Tissue Salt 'Ferr. Phos' for the inflamation.
Calc. Flour. to improve elasticity (something we all lose as we age) and vitamin C in increase collagen metabolism (collagen is the glue that holds everything together)
I am also using a massage oil with pepermint and ginger essential oil in it to deal with pain and inflamation.
My shoulder has improved greatly in the last few weeks and I can now at least sleep undisturbed by pain and my arm movement has almost returned to normal.
Thought you might find this helpful...good luck with your arm
# Posted on April 14th 2009 by Cares
Re: violin technique help
Hi,
I've just joined this website. I've read very good advices especially about Alexander technique. It's very good, although not specifically meant/conceived for violin playing. I'd mention the books and teaching DVD by Kato Havas, Hungarian violin player and teacher who's been teaching injuries and stage fright prevention for 50 years.
She teaches to play using the natural body movements, using no force, no pressure but the natural balances and weights. I'm a great fan of her new approach, I never had tendonitis but everything was so difficult, I used to get really terribly nervous, i could no longer play for any audience. By releasing the physical tension I can play with much more ease and got rid of nerves.
She teaches to play the way she saw the gypsies play, the Hungarian folk players. Somebody says there is a classical, a folk way to play, but as far as the basics go, that is the use of the body, it's all the same.
I guess you hunch your right shoulder to get to the D & G string and maybe press to get a bigger tone. Very common, (I play violin and viola, even more common on the viola). This causes strain in the shoulder and then pain.
You can watch videos of Kato Havas workshop on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3raZezDI4uk this is about having light arms.
Also, you said you get the pain most when your elbow is horizontal with your wrist. that's because stiff wrists (in line with the arm) stiffen the whole arm, up to the shoulder.
Watch those videos, I cannot recommend her enough. There are practical exercises that you can do.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by havasfan
Re: violin technique help
Id second that, A very inspiring player.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by the wicked hacker