I am a fiddle player and still am not happy with my bowings. How does one learn good bowings for fiddle tunes? I am not taking lessons, as my budget is a bit tight, so I am hoping to find a way to learn them on my own. Is transcribing the best way? Is there some unofficial rule book? What do I do? I still sound a little too classical, though I haven;t played classical in a couple years, and listen to nothing but folk. I dont "swing" stuff very well and still play mostly strait. I am a little more syncopated than before but my bowings still get boring, or if I play a song often enough the bowings are no longer spontaneous and I get set in patterns. If anyone has copious amounts of time on their hands I am willing to make a very basic youtube video of myself playing to give people a feel for what I sound like. I am all for constructive criticism. Really I just like playing fiddle, sounding amazing would be nice, but its not necessarily what motivates me. Not annoying those around me would be a plus though. Thanks!
I say go ahead with your video. Another fiddler did that not too long ago, and got some good tips--and without any destructive criticism, I think. It's not *always* sneering and name-calling, on this board.
I think basically you have to just mix it up and keep changing it around.
Listen to a lot of Irish Trad fiddle players (not bluegrass, not oldtymey,
not "Celtic"). Don't start strokes on the downbeat all the time. Some of
the time is good though. Also, it will take years unless you are very
talented.
Ideally you can learn the bowings by ear, but that takes experience and sometimes a bit of educated guesswork. If you can have someone teach you tunes in person you can see the bowings, or just ask some experienced fiddlers at your local session for some advice and I'm sure you'll get some help.
Bowing Styles In Irish Fiddle Playing by David Lyth is a book full of tunes with the bowings very carefully marked to show how certain master fiddlers play them. It's an excellent resource. You can probably find a copy of volume 2 for sale, which is dedicated to Clare fiddlers. There is a first volume dedicated to Sligo fiddlers; it's out of print but if you ask about it on this board there is a good chance that someone will locate a copy for you. I very, very highly recommend these books.
Another great option is to learn tunes from (GOOD) fiddlers on YouTube, you can watch them to see the bowings and play along to get the feel of it.
As you gain more experience fiddling you will develop a feel for the bowing patterns, and eventually you'll be able to figure out how the bowings should go for yourself. You may even find yourself changing the bowings around to suit you, there are many wrong ways to do the bowings but there's more than one right way to do them.
Go ahead with the video if you are comfortable with that, I'm pretty certain that you won't get any rude comments, we're all musicians here and we know how you feel because we've all been there.
I came from classical myself and it was quite a while before I got the bowings down to the point where it actually sounded like Irish music to me. Hang in there, the fact that you can hear that you aren't quite there yet is really the most important thing, your ear will guide you. Best of luck to you.
I think that searching for good bowing patterns has its limitations. I understand that if you are not regularly playing with good players you are at a disadvantage and that looking for ideas via other media forms is your only option. And I know that copying good players is fundamental and formative.
But sooner or later, if you really want to get the most out of this music, you are gonna have to ditch patterns all together and free up your bow to the whims of your own spontaneous creativity
I'd second Michael's advice about finding good players to play with. Are you still in CO? If so, I know of a few good fiddlers who might be able to help you out a bit. If not, it's still likely there is someone within reasonable driving distance of wherever you are. Live people are the best way to learn but obviously that is not always an option.
Never looked at a bowing pattern for Irish music in my life. The thought makes me break out in hives and suffer from horrible childhood classical music flashbacks.
I do try to emulate players like James Cullinan above, great example. Love when the shot is framed with his head of the tip of the bow popping up and down, you can see how time he spends in the half of the bow from the middle to the tip. With this music I seem to have little reason to ever be near the frog. Nothing conscious, just sort of happens that way.
My teacher once gave me sheet music with bow markings for Maids of Mount Kisco. It put me off the tune for a year, at least.
And then he later remarked, "Oh, I don't bow it that way any more, anyway." Well, neither do I. Maybe the exercise was good for building character, but that's about it.
I do think it's useful to watch good fiddlers in action, though, and try to pick up on what they're doing in a general way.
I really have to wonder at some of the comments here. Someone who seems to be fairly new to the music is having a hard time figuring out how the bowings should go to make the tunes sound Irish. For those who have forgotten, that's what this thread is about.
Telling someone who is having this problem that he should make up his own bowings and improvise is pretty useless advise, IMHO. You have to learn to walk before you can run. If he's having a hard time figuring out bowings that sound right, what kind of results do you think he will get if he makes up his own bowings at this point?
At this point I think he could do a lot worse than imitate the playing of some good fiddlers.
Yes it's true that fiddlers develop their own individual bowings to go with their own individual styles. But the OP is obviously not ready for that, or else he wouldn't be having this problem.
wow, james cullinane is amazing! Cute too . . wink* I wish I sounded that interesting as a solo musician. I sound boring in all honesty, but hopefully with practice that will chance. Thanks for the bowing tips. I am still in the colorado area. I play out sometimes, and I feel like I sound boring. Anywho . .I will check out those books and jsut keep listnening I guess. Thanks everyone! I will work on a video/ recording and post it soon. Who are the good fiddle players in colorado to check out?
Give it time B512. It ain't gonna happen overnight. Keep playing and listening. You'll get there if you really want to. Desire is the soul of attainment.
Probably the best advice I got about bowing was to "slur across strings" (aka "rocking the bow"). And, related to that, to use open strings a lot. One of the big differences (I think) between classical violin and Irish fiddling is that the latter tends to run one note right into the next, in an unbroken stream.
At the time I was relying on my long-ago kiddie classical training, and it was hard to change old habits. But once I got used to changing bow direction to facilitate that "slurring across strings" it not only sounded more Irish--not just to me, others remarked on it too--it got a lot easier to play the tunes.
Usual disclaimers apply, YMMV, I'm not a member of "expert village" (village idiot, more like).
There's plenty of books available with specific up and down bow markings, Pete Cooper's Mel Bay Complete Irish Fiddler is one. I've always found they put me off, but I had the knowledge how to make music on the violin, and now I was applying that towards one music only. I'm happiest and my music is too when I'm listening and playing what I'm hearing, or what I want to hear. Listening is the most important part. You can't play a music if you don't listen to it. By extension, if you know how to play your instrument, the music you are listening to all the time will always work its way into your playing. That's the voyage, that's the whole trip, no destination.
You're right, it ultimately has to come from listening, because the whole point is to find ways to do it that sound right.
But copying the bowing of a good fiddler can be helpful if you are having trouble, because it allows you to hear yourself doing it right and allows you to feel that bowing from the inside.
Once you learn a few tunes with the bowings of good fiddlers, you have some experience to apply to your own bowings. But I don't advocate continuing to do that once you get the idea, it's just a stepping stone along the path to your own style.
How do you learn to bow a jig for the first time? You watch and listen to someone else and learn to do it the same way. And that gives you a good idea of how to bow any jig; you obviously can't copy the bowings from one tune to another, but once you've done it you get the idea. If you're listening.
A master fiddler I am not, but one of my friends asked me to make a video earlier in the summer about bowing technique, specifically putting swing into the music. It's one way to kill ten minutes, if you can stand looking at my ridiculous wavy hair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSVmszIlT14
To anything there, I would add that finding good bowing is very similar to figuring out how much ornamentation to use and where to put it: either one is a device for phrasing and articulating a tune. So as a general piece of advice, you want to use bowing patterns that group notes together to emphasize the melodic flow of the tune. You might want to try listening to a good piper or flute player, figure out how they phrase a tune, and then think, how can I get that phrasing on the fiddle.
Breathing and phrasing are intimately connected when playing a wind instrument, just as with singing, so try thinking along those lines when playing the fiddle.
I got The Irish Fiddle Book: "The Art of Traditional Fiddle Playing" by Matt Cranitch after taking a class with him at an Irish Music retreat. It comes with a CD and he is very good at showing bowings and styles. He can talk "our language" (classic musicians) and has written many of his bowings in the music. It is hard to do when you are used to playing straight. I found a used copy at Amazons. Published by OSSIAN
Of course there is no "one" way...but there are better ways....even "rightish" ways. I think that Cranitch and Cooper and good places to start [esp. the former] and Llig is right...at some point you're going to have to get beyond "set" patterns, but you can only do that if:
1. you understand and can hear what patterns are available [and there are a LOT even at the most basic level] and how to vary those "basic' patterns
2. you understand WHY those patterns work and how they give that distinctive sound to the music [ie, bowing across bar lines for example, or how they emphasize beats 2 and 4 in a reel...]
Highly recommend Cathal Hayden's cd rom as well...sometimes the bowing 'patterns' mark up is a bit wonky though and doesn't quite follow what Hayden plays....in Crantich's case it's pretty much exact which help in clarify what the ear is hearing.
Anyway, notation is of course of limited value ultimately, but it's a good place [for some people who need both visual backup to what they're hearing so they can emulate it] to start if one is trying to sort out what bowing patterns can get you to that sound...then it's time for doing things on the fly, as Llig points out. But I suspect hardly anyone can reach that point until they've firmly established at least some 'set' patterns that will give them the sound and the confidence to wing it...which is the ultimate freedom and beauty of this music.
the continuous search for bowings
the continuous search for bowings
I am a fiddle player and still am not happy with my bowings. How does one learn good bowings for fiddle tunes? I am not taking lessons, as my budget is a bit tight, so I am hoping to find a way to learn them on my own. Is transcribing the best way? Is there some unofficial rule book? What do I do? I still sound a little too classical, though I haven;t played classical in a couple years, and listen to nothing but folk. I dont "swing" stuff very well and still play mostly strait. I am a little more syncopated than before but my bowings still get boring, or if I play a song often enough the bowings are no longer spontaneous and I get set in patterns. If anyone has copious amounts of time on their hands I am willing to make a very basic youtube video of myself playing to give people a feel for what I sound like. I am all for constructive criticism. Really I just like playing fiddle, sounding amazing would be nice, but its not necessarily what motivates me. Not annoying those around me would be a plus though. Thanks!
# Posted on August 20th 2009 by banana512
Re: the continuous search for bowings
I say go ahead with your video. Another fiddler did that not too long ago, and got some good tips--and without any destructive criticism, I think. It's not *always* sneering and name-calling, on this board.
# Posted on August 20th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: the continuous search for bowings
I think basically you have to just mix it up and keep changing it around.
Listen to a lot of Irish Trad fiddle players (not bluegrass, not oldtymey,
not "Celtic"). Don't start strokes on the downbeat all the time. Some of
the time is good though. Also, it will take years unless you are very
talented.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Hup
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Ideally you can learn the bowings by ear, but that takes experience and sometimes a bit of educated guesswork. If you can have someone teach you tunes in person you can see the bowings, or just ask some experienced fiddlers at your local session for some advice and I'm sure you'll get some help.
Bowing Styles In Irish Fiddle Playing by David Lyth is a book full of tunes with the bowings very carefully marked to show how certain master fiddlers play them. It's an excellent resource. You can probably find a copy of volume 2 for sale, which is dedicated to Clare fiddlers. There is a first volume dedicated to Sligo fiddlers; it's out of print but if you ask about it on this board there is a good chance that someone will locate a copy for you. I very, very highly recommend these books.
Another great option is to learn tunes from (GOOD) fiddlers on YouTube, you can watch them to see the bowings and play along to get the feel of it.
As you gain more experience fiddling you will develop a feel for the bowing patterns, and eventually you'll be able to figure out how the bowings should go for yourself. You may even find yourself changing the bowings around to suit you, there are many wrong ways to do the bowings but there's more than one right way to do them.
Go ahead with the video if you are comfortable with that, I'm pretty certain that you won't get any rude comments, we're all musicians here and we know how you feel because we've all been there.
I came from classical myself and it was quite a while before I got the bowings down to the point where it actually sounded like Irish music to me. Hang in there, the fact that you can hear that you aren't quite there yet is really the most important thing, your ear will guide you. Best of luck to you.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Marklar
Re: the continuous search for bowings
I think that searching for good bowing patterns has its limitations. I understand that if you are not regularly playing with good players you are at a disadvantage and that looking for ideas via other media forms is your only option. And I know that copying good players is fundamental and formative.
But sooner or later, if you really want to get the most out of this music, you are gonna have to ditch patterns all together and free up your bow to the whims of your own spontaneous creativity
Some body posted this link to James Cullinane's playing the other day and it's terrific playing. Well worth posting again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1_-bx-RagA
And this one that's been posted many times is a great example. Father and two sons, all great individual players. And not one bowing pattern between them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A&feature=related
And then contrast it with this deaf fool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJmIra-c8cc&feature=channel
Expert? My arse. Go back and listen to those other two clips again and get your sanity back
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: the continuous search for bowings
I'd second Michael's advice about finding good players to play with. Are you still in CO? If so, I know of a few good fiddlers who might be able to help you out a bit. If not, it's still likely there is someone within reasonable driving distance of wherever you are. Live people are the best way to learn but obviously that is not always an option.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Thanks for posting the James Cullinane link, Michael. I must have missed it earlier.
I regret that there is no solo album out by him, he's one of the most inspiring players I have heard so far.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: the continuous search for bowings
And James and Carol run a mighty fine guesthouse/restaurant in Doolin - http://www.cullinansdoolin.com/.
The name's Cullinan, by the way.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Never looked at a bowing pattern for Irish music in my life. The thought makes me break out in hives and suffer from horrible childhood classical music flashbacks.
I do try to emulate players like James Cullinan above, great example. Love when the shot is framed with his head of the tip of the bow popping up and down, you can see how time he spends in the half of the bow from the middle to the tip. With this music I seem to have little reason to ever be near the frog. Nothing conscious, just sort of happens that way.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the continuous search for bowings
My teacher once gave me sheet music with bow markings for Maids of Mount Kisco. It put me off the tune for a year, at least.
And then he later remarked, "Oh, I don't bow it that way any more, anyway." Well, neither do I. Maybe the exercise was good for building character, but that's about it.
I do think it's useful to watch good fiddlers in action, though, and try to pick up on what they're doing in a general way.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by tuckered out
Re: the continuous search for bowings
I really have to wonder at some of the comments here. Someone who seems to be fairly new to the music is having a hard time figuring out how the bowings should go to make the tunes sound Irish. For those who have forgotten, that's what this thread is about.
Telling someone who is having this problem that he should make up his own bowings and improvise is pretty useless advise, IMHO. You have to learn to walk before you can run. If he's having a hard time figuring out bowings that sound right, what kind of results do you think he will get if he makes up his own bowings at this point?
At this point I think he could do a lot worse than imitate the playing of some good fiddlers.
Yes it's true that fiddlers develop their own individual bowings to go with their own individual styles. But the OP is obviously not ready for that, or else he wouldn't be having this problem.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Marklar
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Well stated, Marklar.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by leoj
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Well said Marklar.
Llig: thanks for the link to James C. Beautiful playing. Lovely buttery tone.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: the continuous search for bowings
wow, james cullinane is amazing! Cute too . . wink* I wish I sounded that interesting as a solo musician. I sound boring in all honesty, but hopefully with practice that will chance. Thanks for the bowing tips. I am still in the colorado area. I play out sometimes, and I feel like I sound boring. Anywho . .I will check out those books and jsut keep listnening I guess. Thanks everyone! I will work on a video/ recording and post it soon. Who are the good fiddle players in colorado to check out?
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by banana512
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Give it time B512. It ain't gonna happen overnight. Keep playing and listening. You'll get there if you really want to. Desire is the soul of attainment.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by john knoss
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Probably the best advice I got about bowing was to "slur across strings" (aka "rocking the bow"). And, related to that, to use open strings a lot. One of the big differences (I think) between classical violin and Irish fiddling is that the latter tends to run one note right into the next, in an unbroken stream.
At the time I was relying on my long-ago kiddie classical training, and it was hard to change old habits. But once I got used to changing bow direction to facilitate that "slurring across strings" it not only sounded more Irish--not just to me, others remarked on it too--it got a lot easier to play the tunes.
Usual disclaimers apply, YMMV, I'm not a member of "expert village" (village idiot, more like).
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by tuckered out
Re: the continuous search for bowings
There's plenty of books available with specific up and down bow markings, Pete Cooper's Mel Bay Complete Irish Fiddler is one. I've always found they put me off, but I had the knowledge how to make music on the violin, and now I was applying that towards one music only. I'm happiest and my music is too when I'm listening and playing what I'm hearing, or what I want to hear. Listening is the most important part. You can't play a music if you don't listen to it. By extension, if you know how to play your instrument, the music you are listening to all the time will always work its way into your playing. That's the voyage, that's the whole trip, no destination.
Whew. Lotta coffee this morning.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the continuous search for bowings
You're right, it ultimately has to come from listening, because the whole point is to find ways to do it that sound right.
But copying the bowing of a good fiddler can be helpful if you are having trouble, because it allows you to hear yourself doing it right and allows you to feel that bowing from the inside.
Once you learn a few tunes with the bowings of good fiddlers, you have some experience to apply to your own bowings. But I don't advocate continuing to do that once you get the idea, it's just a stepping stone along the path to your own style.
How do you learn to bow a jig for the first time? You watch and listen to someone else and learn to do it the same way. And that gives you a good idea of how to bow any jig; you obviously can't copy the bowings from one tune to another, but once you've done it you get the idea. If you're listening.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Marklar
Re: the continuous search for bowings
A master fiddler I am not, but one of my friends asked me to make a video earlier in the summer about bowing technique, specifically putting swing into the music. It's one way to kill ten minutes, if you can stand looking at my ridiculous wavy hair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSVmszIlT14
To anything there, I would add that finding good bowing is very similar to figuring out how much ornamentation to use and where to put it: either one is a device for phrasing and articulating a tune. So as a general piece of advice, you want to use bowing patterns that group notes together to emphasize the melodic flow of the tune. You might want to try listening to a good piper or flute player, figure out how they phrase a tune, and then think, how can I get that phrasing on the fiddle.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Danjo
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Breathing and phrasing are intimately connected when playing a wind instrument, just as with singing, so try thinking along those lines when playing the fiddle.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by lazyhound
Re: the continuous search for bowings
I got The Irish Fiddle Book: "The Art of Traditional Fiddle Playing" by Matt Cranitch after taking a class with him at an Irish Music retreat. It comes with a CD and he is very good at showing bowings and styles. He can talk "our language" (classic musicians) and has written many of his bowings in the music. It is hard to do when you are used to playing straight. I found a used copy at Amazons. Published by OSSIAN
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by samfordb
Re: the continuous search for bowings
Of course there is no "one" way...but there are better ways....even "rightish" ways. I think that Cranitch and Cooper and good places to start [esp. the former] and Llig is right...at some point you're going to have to get beyond "set" patterns, but you can only do that if:
1. you understand and can hear what patterns are available [and there are a LOT even at the most basic level] and how to vary those "basic' patterns
2. you understand WHY those patterns work and how they give that distinctive sound to the music [ie, bowing across bar lines for example, or how they emphasize beats 2 and 4 in a reel...]
Highly recommend Cathal Hayden's cd rom as well...sometimes the bowing 'patterns' mark up is a bit wonky though and doesn't quite follow what Hayden plays....in Crantich's case it's pretty much exact which help in clarify what the ear is hearing.
Anyway, notation is of course of limited value ultimately, but it's a good place [for some people who need both visual backup to what they're hearing so they can emulate it] to start if one is trying to sort out what bowing patterns can get you to that sound...then it's time for doing things on the fly, as Llig points out. But I suspect hardly anyone can reach that point until they've firmly established at least some 'set' patterns that will give them the sound and the confidence to wing it...which is the ultimate freedom and beauty of this music.
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by mtodd